The entire last twoish years have have been doubly insane for people like myself, because:

Though I am not Jewish, my cousins all are. They are all secular, American, liberal to lefty Jews by the heritage and ethnicity of their father, and his culture that they maintain.

They are all against the genocide, but according to current, general, right wing sentiment... they either don't exist or are self hating.

I can only imagine this has all been even more insane for them.

Nearly every pro-Palestine protest on every campus in the US that I've read about or seem... has at bare minimum had sizeable numbers of Jewish Americans at it, if not being co-organized by them or headlining them as speakers.

... Meanwhile, I've been anti Zionist my whole life, and every single actual Israeli I've ever met has been a racist, anti-Islamic Zionist... and when I point this out, almost every white liberal or self described lefty has called me an antisemite.

Then on my own side of the family, my dad and my uncle just actually are racist anti-semites, making 'off color jokes' about Jews being greedy and money obsessed at fucking family gatherings literally in the faces of my cousins and their dad.

Oh well I guess?

Politics evolves to become defined by the hypocrises and contradictions no one is capable of having a rational discussion about.

I think it's potentially true that Hamas fucks with aid and blames it on the IDF for public support. I don't know if they do, but it'd be smart. Israel is absolutely fucking with aid, guaranteed. They're murdering civilians, and damn near no one seems to give a shit. It's sad how few people seem to pay attention or care about the obvious signs of genocide. Not just the Palestinian genocide, the Rwandan, Bosnian, Cambodian genocides as well.

Also, part 2:

Israelis tend to get really fucking triggered when you tell them about:

Israel was literally founded by terrorists who bombed and shot civillians in terror bombings... as in, they explicitly targetted civillians for the chaos factor... and they wrote about this in their own journals and memoirs and then went on to lead the government.

The entire USS Liberty incident, which was almost certainly Israel trying to false flag blow up an American ship during the 6 day war and blame it on the Egyptians, to get the US directly involved.

The Apollo Affair, wherein Israeli sympathizers/spies literally stole US nuclear fissile material from the US to aide in the production of their nuclear weapons (which basically every Western government officially, and society generally, denied they even had nukes untill about a year to 6 months ago).

The Samson Doctrine, Israel's take on nuclear detterance... is more or less this:

If Israel feels like it is going to be nuked or completely invaded, they will nuke major cities in all countries within one to two thousand miles, ally, enemy, neutral, who cares, the logic is to throw as big of a shit fit as possible and declare that if they can't have Israel, no one can have anything, and they'll do all that themselves.

And finally, if you just tell them that Hasbara is a real thing that obviously exists and promotes publically that it will pay anyone who will draft themselves into being an online propaganda troll for Israel.

... Conversely, if anybody were to tell me about all the awful shit the US has done and is doing, I have a functioning moral compass and brain and can say, yep, that shit is/was fucking awful, unnaceptable, and in my ideal world, all those responsible would be in jail or tried as war criminals, in the ICJ for crimes against humanity, Luigi'd, etc.

Oh I know, its just been dialed up to fucking insane levels lately.

I don't think that's fair, they do absolutely teach Zionism from a young age, but it's not specifically genocide. Watched an interesting documentary recently about Jews in America and how they're raised, it's basically once you get pushed into the IDF THEN the genocide love starts being actively spread.

It's hard to say. With or without hostages, October 7 was extremely traumatic; and came in the context of a population already primed to be suspicious of Palestinians. In particular, the West Bank ethnic cleansing was already well underway with the tacit support of the general population; as although for most people that support was more about apathy than proactive support. Looking at how the US lost its shit for decades after 9/11, it is clear that hostages are not necessary for that to happen. Israel has also to deal with follow up attacks, which has a way of keeping trauma fresh.

Regarding the role of the hostages in this case, the first thing to acknowledge is that the actual response by Israel has not prioritized the hostages. Critical members of Israel's current governing coalition have threatened to leave over prior attempts at a hostage deal. This has lead a serious rift developing between the current government and many of the hostage families.

However, from a propaganda side, the hostages have been a major assesset to the current government (both internationally and domestically). Most people are simply not that engaged in politics. We have heard repeatedly from Israeli military leadership that there are no achievat military goals left in Gaza. However, it is hard for that message to break through when the other side can point to the hostages and say "freeing those people is our goal". Nevermind the fact that everyone paying attention knows that military action is not an effective tool of hostage release [0] and almost all of the freed hostages have been freed as a result of diplomacy.

[0] It can be useful for leverage in negotiations; but Israel is well past the point needed for that.

Since the steps for Palestinian genocide started before Oct 7, and the IDF has been okay with killing their own hostages in high-yield strikes, not likely.

Considering they're carpet-bombing the place it'll be interesting to know if there any hostages left.. of course they'll blame hamas.

Yeah, I think it's less being Jewish and more that they are settlers. They are acting just like how Canadians, Australians and Afrikaners acted against the local indigenous population.

Anything that reminds them that they don't belong to this land (in their assessment and minds, land does not belong to anyone) they hate that. Mostly the people who were there before them.

It's not Jewishness, it's just Assholeishness.

Israel is absolutely being genocidal here, but it has nothing to do with them being Jews. They want the land, full stop. They believe they are more entitled to the land than anyone else, full stop.

The fact that they are Jewish is really immaterial and hating "the Jews" because of what Israel is doing is a lot like, I dunno, hating white people because of the various White Supremacist groups.

You have a supremacist government taking genocidal actions, any supremacist government would do the same, it doesn't matter what the heritage is.

The vast majority of Israeli Jews and a significant number (not sure if a majority) of diaspora Jews are actively guilty of perpetuating and aiding Israel's genocide and occupation(s). That's just facts and won't get you banned (at least not from Lemmy). However, generalizing that to the significant fraction of Jews who aren't party to these crimes or are opposing them is antisemitism and will rightly get you banned. There's nothing complicated about this.

So it's a fascist state, which include a support of it's population through nationalism. It doesn't change anything that this nationalism is based on a religion, regional or cultural identity. It's work the same.

Speaking about all the population is cutting ourselves from the ally we have in the 15%. We couldn't say "it's over, we couldn't do anything for those left"; we are the 15% in our own imperialist state. And if you think that this is a different situation, there were German resistance during WW2 ... and they almost kill hitler.

Even if you disagree, why speaking about Jewish people and not just Israeli people ? You just insulting every Jews that choose do not live in Israel. A choice you didn't make.

Also work the other way around, Jewish people from around the world that don't accept the genocide being committed on their name are not going to move to Israel, while tha ones that are OK and support it are more likely to move in and participate directly.

Yeah to be fair this is true, and I bet a lot of the Palestinians would wish for all the Israelis to leave

Jews and Muslims have had many extensive periods of peace living together (including in Palestine before the state of Israel). The story of Islamic-Jewish hostilities is actually fairly recent and shorter than you'd expect.

Antisemitism as we know it today is mostly a European export to the Middle East.

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”

— David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938

To be fair, the Palestinians had not choice in their occupying force and would have realised any group taking their land and displacing them.

Yet Jews had their Golden Age in Spain during Muslim rule before the Reconquista.

This hate is easily explained by reading what Zionist leaders have said themselves:

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

On the other hand, Israel is an existential threat to every nation around it. If there was an aggressive theocratic ethnostate expansionist threatening your border, wouldn't you hate them?

Israel doesn't just want Palestine. They want the West Bank, Gaza, and all or large chunks of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt. Expelling the Gazans from Gaza won't solve this. The Israelis want to do the following:

1. Expel the Gazans just over the border into shanty towns in neighboring countries.
2. Some displaced people in those areas will inevitably sneak back over the border to carry out revenge attacks against the people that stole their homes.
3. When (2) happens, use that as a justification to invade neighboring countries and seize additional land.

Israel has been slowly expanding its borders this way for decades. They seize an area of land, declare it a military buffer zone, but then let their civilians move into the buffer zone. They use their own population as human shields, putting them in danger of attacks by displaced Arabs. Then when this happens, they use this as an excuse to expand their borders further.

If you had a psychopathic country for a neighbor, that intended to slowly gobble up your own nation bit by bit, wouldn't you want them all dead?

What a stupid comment.

Jew lived in yemen - Iraq - Palestine - Egypt - Morocco - Iran for hundred of years. Saying Arab hate jew is propaganda.

The hate is for Israeli and those who supported them through the year while they genocide - destroy villages- cites- farms- didnt allow people to go back home.. in fact they kick them out of their own home and allowing an American zionist Jew to just take the land.

They build shelter because they know they are a colony and sooner or later people of the land will attempt to get them back. Not because “Arab hate them”

there are plenty of Muslims in the surrounding states that believe Jewish people are evil

plenty of non-Muslims too

Israel is an existential threat to its neighbors. The hate isn't irrational. It's perfectly reasonable.

And Palestine is being ethnically cleansed and genocided by the same apocalyptic Jewish and Christian thinking. Religious apocalypticism aside, in Palestine there is a clear victim and aggressor. You don't even have to take my words for it. Take Israel's first prime minister's words:

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” — David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

Can you elucidate?

1967 is notably two decades into the ethnonationalist colonial project that displaced many Palestinians from their homes.

The 1967 war was preemptive. Israel started it. Then again, they also started the 1948 war in November 1947 months before Arab armies got involved.

https://theintercept.com/2017/06/05/a-50-year-occupation-israels-six-day-war-started-with-a-lie/

82% support genocide.

What percent of the Germans under Hitler supported genocide?

Not enough principle to be a hypocrite. He's just a drunk old creep.

Ok reactionary

so you say that nationalities are more accurate than religion. That's my point

That's not the point. This a fascist state, which imply a massive support from the population, their is no debate.

So we have to stop being so naive. What say those numbers ? Who allow those numbers to exists ? What those numbers do not tell ? Why nobody ask themselves those questions ?

• Those numbers in showing racial struggle may hide social struggle or imperialist struggle
• in a fascist state at ware, this poll could have been invisibilized or forbid by the Israel. So, it may help it's propaganda
• I don't think any difference in the support of Israeli people to they fascist government that the support of people in western countries to their own government. In focusing in this imperialistic situation, may be a lot of people could avoid to fight it. Even if we are more efficient their, and it's may help Palestine

Finally, some racist people may attack jews around the world because of the confusion made between us and Israel. And again, that confusion is one of the objective of Israel propaganda

No, it's not. Again the biggest organization that support zionism is evangelist. A lot of atheist people are atheist, and a lot of jews are not zionist, or are anti-zionist. You making short link that break solidarity and make confusion their.

Yes religion used to justify nationalism, colonialist, imperialist and apaththeid... as a propaganda. We don't fighting Israej in repeating its propaganda.

Yiddish culture has piratically been destroy by Israel policy. Jews from Ethiopia (Falashas) has been sterilized by force the Israel. Being Jews or not is unrelated with Israel.

I don't give a shit if those numbers are right or true. It's not changing anything

I really don't give a shit

I care as much about the Palestinians as i care about the Israelis... from my personal point of view i have as much emotional investment in them as with any other people that kill eachother in other parts of the world, so not very much.

Oh i can understand them also very well... but this doesn't change anything. Neither side is "good" or "bad" over there, both sides have very good reasons to keep on fighting.

I think at this moment the total annihilation of one of the two sides is ineviteable, too much blood has been spilled too much atrocities were conducted on both sides.

Somehow i have the feeling that i will regret further participating in this conversation, but i feel somewhat masochistic today:

Any western nation is safer because no western nation is surrounded by countries that would happily do to the israelis what the israelis currently are doing to the palestinians. Yes, its unfair and brutal, but as a nation of a people that was selected for annihilation just about 90 years ago i personaly can understand that they are willing to commit every atrocity needed to ensure that nobody will attack them.

Do i LIKE it? Hell no! Would i like a better solution where everyone over there lives in peace? Absolutely! But i can UNDERSTAND why they acting the way they do.

And that neighbor occasionally threw explosives over the fence.

What if they're throwing explosives because you occasionally murder your neighbors by the dozen?

I agree, but I will add that they are also indoctrinated from a young age to hate or fear the Palestinians. I don’t really think the long history means as much other than an excuse to continue the indoctrination.

The same could be said for the other side... which is the reason i think this conflict is absolutely hopeless...

Best time to break the blockade was the 90s, the second best time is now.

It's also not realistically achievable without somehow convincing Israel to willingly dismantle itself, given that a) a significant disparity of military power exists between it and Palestine, which isn't likely to reverse any time soon given that it is nigh impossible for Palestine to build an economic base sufficient to rival Israel while under effective occupation and b) that it is an open secret that Isreal possess nuclear weapons, making some kind of foreign invasion suicidally untenable. Actually launching those weapons would be an extremely dangerous move of course, but a state facing a clear and imminent outside threat to it's existence is exactly the kind of situation where someone might contemplate it.

The most likely thing to work out that I can envision would be if foreign support can at least shore up what remains of Palestine enough to give it sovereignty and at a stretch some means of deterrence against further attack. All that really achieves admittedly is a two state solution, which doesn't result in a Palestine with particularly favorable geography, but if it results in peace there's the hope that the hatred involved can cool with time and new generations until some kind of union can be proposed without the resultant state being at risk of collapsing into a genocidal state again.

There's no reason to assume that ancient israel was any less evil than ancient rome.

Furthemore, that doesn't define judaism. There were thousands of years before and after roman conquest. Zios focus on the roman empire because that's their shitty justification for genocide, theft, etc.

This isn't any more fucked up than the genocide of native americans for example. Unfortunately there's nothing special about empire genociding people. But I don't think these zios are lobbying for native american rights, because zios are genociders.

Lastly this doesn't have much to do with "religion" versus "sucularism". Zionism was largely founded by the non-religious. It's goals are not religious but purely political/genocidal. The most "religious"/spiritual jews largely reject the zionist regime. Religion is a tool of empire, but the more fundamental problems are empire, colonialism, racism, etc.

This means that Israel presently relies on an external backer for its security (the US).

Makes you wonder if Israel is trying to grab as much land as possible and eliminate as many people who might have competing claims on that land as possible before the US collapses economically (and with that their giant military budget) now that Donald Trump is doing his best to make that a reality.

Most of its neighbours have islamic fundamentalist governments,

This is false

or otherwise have authoritarian power structures that will have to bend to the religious right in times of crisis

this is mostly true but they tend to be anti-Islamist

This is the bit that I've had a hard time with. And, to put it in less snide allegorical terms: Israel is in many ways the "invader". They took land, took homes, that weren't theirs. That invasion has been justified through massive harm to their people, and the need for a "safe space" they can call their own. But while that's the in-person justification by individuals, the backroom justification used to ship the weapons is achieving a "Western presence" in the middle east.

Something the Jewish community might not get is: They're not the only group that's been targeted for hate throughout history. The holocaust didn't even specifically target jews. We don't get to make a "Transgender state", or a "Black American state", and especially not displace others for that. In some ways the world needs to accept that, whether by 10 miles or 100, we'll still be neighbors on this planet and not totally unreachable. Set that distance, and it means you only get boiling points like 9/11 rather than shots fired in a neighborhood.

100%

except there's a bit of tragedy

Palestinians are in large part the Jews who stayed there and later converted.

so it's more like your childhood home is housing your brother and his family. you take over it at gunpoint and act like they never existed

It's not accurate in the slightest.

It's a genuinely disgusting mischaracterization of violent dispossession and genocide as some kind of sibling rivalry.

This is not an argument between family! Palestinian people are being maimed, tortured, starved, and killed! They have been subjected to relentless oppression, occupation, and brutality under an internationally recognized system of apartheid for decades. The perpetrators of these heinous crimes do not need a stern talking to from a parent, they need to be brought to justice.

What is happening now is the culmination of years of this sort of dismissive patronizing bullshit framing of some of the most despicable things humans can do to others. The genocidal intent motivating these acts is spoken openly and plainly by zionist officials and media, and all foreign backers have made it abundantly clear that they will do their part to try to sanitize and legitimize these horrific crimes.

A reckoning will come, and absolutely no one who sided with israel, in virtually any capacity, will be able to claim ignorance nor innocence. Every one will be remembered for their role in supporting these sadistic genocidal child murderers.